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Mr Sparkle
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:37 am
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You can not put animal welfare in the same league as human rights. Apples and oranges... no... apples and pumpkins even!
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psyco
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:52 am
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| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | You can not put animal welfare in the same league as human rights. Apples and oranges... no... apples and pumpkins even! |
without going into more detail than is aloud on these forums, why not?
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Mr Sparkle
Me no make sense
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:41 pm
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Sparkle thought the reasons were quite obvious. Human rights were specifically devised to create an ethical standard within our social structure. Animals don't do the things we do. They don't behave the way we do. They have completely different needs. Animals don't even have the mental capacity to actually grasp what a "right" is, nor are they aware of the concept of "I" or "me". Most don't even know how their actions affects their neighbour. We do and that's the fundamental difference.
Us humans are capable of empathy - i.e.. understand the concept of suffering. Therefore we should have the responsibility to respect the rights of others AND aslo look after the welfare of lesser beings, such as animals, midgets, illegal immigrats and retards. But at the end of the day, we also have to be realistic. The latter examples are still a commodity, whether you like it or not. But as long as they're treated well and they are happy in the environment you're creating, does it really matter?
p.s. ChibiHana's coneys look delicious. Feel like rabbit stew now.
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I am disrespectful to dirt!
Can you see I am serious!?
God speaks to me, too. BUT I take my medicine.
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psyco
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:04 pm
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| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | welfare of lesser beings, such as animals, midgets, illegal immigrats and retards... ...But as long as they're treated well and they are happy in the environment you're creating, does it really matter? |
i fail to grasp your lesser being argument, to the point where i emperthise offence.
how can we really tell if there happy, we cant ask them? but same with African slaves, i suppose. its all they knew it was 'normal' for them so it became an expectancy, they probably thought it could be worse. but then again, we cant really ask them, can we?
but still your forgetting, we don't need to help animals, there not intended to be looked after.
while your analysis of human to animal behaviour is true, we are essentially the same, but with a more evolved/mutated genome.
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Jabbawocky
Elder God Jabbawocky
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:01 pm
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| psyco wrote: | that's not entirely what i meant, i meant that owning a pet isn't a right, its a luxury(if your into that kind of stuff).
regarding the whole captivity thing, sure its better that way. but have you read 'to kill a mocking bird' - my memory is fuzzy but i remember it has something to do with slavery, and imo owning a pet is an extension, only slightly less cruel, but nether the less. |
Dude To Kill a Mockingbird is nothing to do about slavery, the closest it touches on the subject is that an African American handyman get put on trial for rape and the white folk of the town put him down for it even though he is innocent. It is a novel about human flaws and how they fail to see beyond appearance.
Back on the subject though you can tell if an animal is happy by the way they act. I agree with you on the fact that we don't need help the animal (not from anyone but ourselves anyway). But animals that have been domesticated such as cats and dogs now need to be cared for by humans because they cannot look after themselves anymore.
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ChibiHana
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:21 pm
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| Mr Sparkle wrote: | Sparkle thought the reasons were quite obvious. Human rights were specifically devised to create an ethical standard within our social structure. Animals don't do the things we do. They don't behave the way we do. They have completely different needs. Animals don't even have the mental capacity to actually grasp what a "right" is, nor are they aware of the concept of "I" or "me". Most don't even know how their actions affects their neighbour. We do and that's the fundamental difference.
Us humans are capable of empathy - i.e.. understand the concept of suffering. Therefore we should have the responsibility to respect the rights of others AND aslo look after the welfare of lesser beings, such as animals, midgets, illegal immigrats and retards. But at the end of the day, we also have to be realistic. The latter examples are still a commodity, whether you like it or not. But as long as they're treated well and they are happy in the environment you're creating, does it really matter?
p.s. ChibiHana's coneys look delicious. Feel like rabbit stew now. |
Sparkle-san is a smart guy, it seems.
but if you touch my bunnies, I'll be having Sparkle stew. *eye twitch*
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psyco
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Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:30 pm
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| Jabbawocky wrote: | Dude To Kill a Mockingbird is nothing to do about slavery, the closest it touches on the subject is that an African American handyman get put on trial for rape and the white folk of the town put him down for it even though he is innocent. It is a novel about human flaws and how they fail to see beyond appearance.
Back on the subject though you can tell if an animal is happy by the way they act. I agree with you on the fact that we don't need help the animal (not from anyone but ourselves anyway). But animals that have been domesticated such as cats and dogs now need to be cared for by humans because they cannot look after themselves anymore. |
yeh i did tell you that my memory was fuzzy:P but thanks for the info.
im only speaking for my self, since thats all i can really do. but if im doing something that i don't want to do, im happy, but i would be happier if i was doing that i wanted to do.
the new revision of the law must have included de-domesticating domestic animals, so like that matters, there a inferior race. i don't partically wish harm upon them, but realistically 'survival of the fitest' and all that.
EDIT: wasn't the accused rapist working for the accuser's father at the time? like a slave?
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Mr Sparkle
Me no make sense
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Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:18 am
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| psyco wrote: | | i fail to grasp your lesser being argument, to the point where i emperthise offence. |
Ok "lesser being" is a bad choice of words, and if you haven't noticed by now, there was some sarcasm in there, too.  The point was, we're on top of the food chain in every respect. We have unprecedented capability of controlling the environment around us, hence it's fair to say we out-classed most living things on this planet. That was Sparkle's point.
| Quote: | | how can we really tell if there happy, we cant ask them? |
Observation of behaviour? We humans are pretty good at this, you know. If you are familiar with a particular animal, say a dog, you can actually tell when a dog is happy or when it is suffering.
| Quote: | | but same with African slaves, i suppose. its all they knew it was 'normal' for them so it became an expectancy, they probably thought it could be worse. but then again, we cant really ask them, can we? |
Um... it's not the same as keeping pets. Go back to Sparkle's earlier point about humans grasping what a "right" is, and being aware of the concept of "I" or "me", etcetera.
| Quote: | | but still your forgetting, we don't need to help animals, there not intended to be looked after. |
Why not? Sure, they can be self sufficient in some respects, but why should that stop us from keeping animals? (Funny thing is, some animals even want the company of humans, due to a better chance of survival.)
Sparkle will go straight to the point: The reality is that we're omnivores and we need meat. It's the only reason why we humans started keeping animals. This practice is basically bred into our psyche. It is a fundamental need, otherwise we would've died out aeons ago.
Even today, our society would struggle without the farming and raising of animals. Having said that, we also reached a point where we learned heaps about animal behaviour and traits. This allowed us to put decent ethical standards in place, and continue raising animals with minimal suffering. Ain't nothing wrong with that.
Your counter reasoning so far just does not cut it, IMO. It's pretty weak, particularly your human slave analogy. Sparkle gets the feeling you're a vegan or perhaps a Buddhist or something. Not saying there's anything wrong with that. BUT don't think for a second that your beliefs will invalidate everyone else's.
| Quote: | | while your analysis of human to animal behis true, we are essentially the same, but with a more evolved/mutated genome. |
Yeah we are animals, too. And that just re-enforces Sparkle's point: Our behaviour in respect to other animals fits in perfectly with the doctrine of Darwin's theory.
By the way, just to go off topic, Sparkle would not say we are "more evolved/mutated". In terms of survival, we are no more evolved than your average sparrow. Every animal you see living today are basically successful examples of evolution of their resective species. They're here because they adapted well to their environment. What sets us apart from other animals is our cognitive abilites.
| Jabbawocky wrote: | | But animals that have been domesticated such as cats and dogs now need to be cared for by humans because they cannot look after themselves anymore. |
Not really, domestic pets are perfectly capable of going feral and look after themselves. Only those animals that were raised in captivity with minimal contact on the outside will have a hard real time in the wild.
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I am disrespectful to dirt!
Can you see I am serious!?
God speaks to me, too. BUT I take my medicine.
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psyco
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Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:48 am
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| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Ok "lesser being" is a bad choice of words, and if you haven't noticed by now, there was some sarcasm in there, too. The point was, we're on top of the food chain in every respect. We have unprecedented capability of controlling the environment around us, hence it's fair to say we out-classed most living things on this planet. That was Sparkle's point. |
yeh, and look where that got us, gobal warming(not to say it wasn't inevitable anyway)
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Observation of behaviour? |
i was trying to make the point that maybe they would be happier else where
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Um... it's not the same as keeping pets. Go back to Sparkle's earlier point about humans grasping what a "right" is, and being aware of the concept of "I" or "me", etcetera. |
that has widely been excepted as a mutation, i forget the gene name. but thats what evolution is a series of mutation. but it still is in my view, you know the whole 'life is sacred' stuff:)
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Why not? Sure, they can be self sufficient in some respects, but why should that stop us from keeping animals? (Funny thing is, some animals even want the company of humans, due to a better chance of survival.) |
it shouldn't were all individuals. witch animals? in witch case it seems like there using us. i think this is going to end up with me using 'thats why dogs and humans cant reproduce'.
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Sparkle will go straight to the point: The reality is that we're omnivores and we need meat. It's the only reason why we humans started keeping animals. This practice is basically bred into our psyche. It is a fundamental need, otherwise we would've died out aeons ago. |
ah, they eat thy dog? strangely enough, i don't have a problem with farming, not because its cruel. but because people eat meat, and im a person.
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Your counter reasoning so far just does not cut it, IMO. It's pretty weak, particularly your human slave analogy. Sparkle gets the feeling you're a vegan or perhaps a Buddhist or something. Not saying there's anything wrong with that. BUT don't think for a second that your beliefs will invalidate everyone else's. |
nope im a meet eating antireligionist. i never set out to change anyone's views, nor particularly to invalidate them. its just my opinion:P
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Mr Sparkle
Me no make sense
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Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:55 pm
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| Quote: | | yeh, and look where that got us, gobal warming(not to say it wasn't inevitable anyway) |
Yeah true, we're bunch of greedy bastards. But that's another story all together.
| Quote: | | that has widely been excepted as a mutation, i forget the gene name. but thats what evolution is a series of mutation. |
Yes, evolution. But how is that relevant with human rights?
| Quote: | | but it still is in my view, you know the whole 'life is sacred' stuff:) |
No it isn't. It's a straw man argument.
| Quote: | | i was trying to make the point that maybe they would be happier else where |
Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows... we're heading into wild assumptions and hypotheticals. Conversely Sparkle can say that life in the wild is incredibly hard and probably a more cruel than living as pet. The constant danger from predators, the scarcity food and water, competition with other species can make life a pain in the hairy (or feathery) arse for any animal.
Being a pet is great, you get food, shelter, go breeding occasionally, and get constant attention. (Being a pet is especially good if your mistress is a good cook.  )
| Quote: | | it shouldn't were all individuals. witch animals? in witch case it seems like there using us. |
Lots of animals live with humans by choice. They take part in everyday human life without people taking much notice or even know about it. You should remember this every time you walk past a pidgeon, seagull, sparrow, raccoon, parrot, rat, mouse, squirrel, hobo, etc. These animals are called "weed species", they thrive and adapt in any environment with ease, and take advantage of human activity.
| Quote: | | i think this is going to end up with me using 'thats why dogs and humans cant reproduce'. |
huh...?
| Quote: | | ah, they eat thy dog? |
Sometimes - and cats, too . You don't necessarily need eat to every animal in captivity for survival. They can be used for hunting and finding food, while other animals can be used to haul load or plough fields... for example. In fact some animals in the olden days were so valuable as an asset, they were never eaten, even though it would be perfectly OK to do so.
| Quote: | | strangely enough, i don't have a problem with farming, not because its cruel. but because people eat meat, and im a person. |
In that case, you're being self-contradictory in the context of thw whole 'life is sacred' argument. So basically you don't have a problem with keeping livestock for slaughter, and yet it's immoral to keep pets at home; pets which get pampered to no end in some cases? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing... | Quote: | | its just my opinion |
So Sparkle notcied. But opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one. What you do with it is what really counts. 
Chibi, how does Hasenpfeffer sound? Sparkle will share...
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psyco
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Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:30 pm
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| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Yes, evolution. But how is that relevant with human rights? |
tbh i don't get either why concept is so important either.
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | No it isn't. It's a straw man argument. |
straw? clutching at straws argument?
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows... we're heading into wild assumptions and hypotheticals. Conversely Sparkle can say that life in the wild is incredibly hard and probably a more cruel than living as pet. The constant danger from predators, the scarcity food and water, competition with other species can make life a pain in the hairy (or feathery) arse for any animal. |
thats fine though, cause thats the way its supposed to be
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Lots of animals live with humans by choice. They take part in everyday human life without people taking much notice or even know about it. You should remember this every time you walk past a pidgeon, seagull, sparrow, raccoon, parrot, rat, mouse, squirrel, hobo, etc. These animals are called "weed species", they thrive and adapt in any environment with ease, and take advantage of human activity. |
really? seems more like throwing darts at a dart board until you hit a bulls eye
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | huh...? |
if we were supposed to encourage a species survives, then we would have been able to intervene better
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | So basically you don't have a problem with keeping livestock for slaughter, and yet it's immoral to keep pets at home; pets which get pampered to no end in some cases? Or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing... |
yes, the end justifies the means. while it is cruel, its become part of human survival. thats why i have no problems with guide dogs.
a bit of both really, its something fun to do:)
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | you're being self-contradictory in the context of thw whole 'life is sacred' argument. |
people do that all the time, think of it more as a sub-clause
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VainZiler
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Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:57 pm
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So, i've been sitting back, watching this arguement, and I decided to take my few stabs at this.
Both of you seemed to have lost the point, when evolution was brought into it. Evolution happens, and we just happened to evolve enough to do what we do. How it fits with human right, has nothing to do with the subject of animal rights, nor the ownership of animals.
Mr. Sparkle has made a good point, some species of animals, do indeed thrive off others interactions, wether human or non-human. Flies for instance, always feed off the waste of others. They take the nutrients left inside. Though its a loose analogy, it fits to a degree. Racoons as well, eating out of dumpsters that we leave out in plain sight. Its a simular theory. So, wether we do it on purpose or not, we are always doing something that aids another animal.
Its not so much If we were supose to as it is, if we weren't so lazy to help species survive.
Now this is full out my pure thoughts, but it is ever rare, that the term 'the end, justifies the means' is ever held to be true. There are many solutions, the term just covers them up in blindness.
Sub clause my ass. If your going to preach your beleif, then actualy stick to it, or find a new beleif. Again, that's just my philosophy.
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| Amphibious wrote: | | As the great VainZiller said so long ago... |
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Mr Sparkle
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:28 am
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| Quote: | | straw? clutching at straws argument? |
Indeed you are, but Sparkle meant this: Straw man argument.
| Quote: | | yes, the end justifies the means. while it is cruel, its become part of human survival. thats why i have no problems with guide dogs. |
Eh how does cruelty fit in with guide dogs?
Dude, a lot of your counter arguments either make no sense, or they are way out of context. It's time to stop.
| VainZiler wrote: | | Both of you seemed to have lost the point, when evolution was brought into it. |
Sparkle begs to differ - Psyco raised the issue of evolution, Sparkle only responded with some side remarks.
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I am disrespectful to dirt!
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God speaks to me, too. BUT I take my medicine.
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psyco
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:40 am
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yes vainziler, i often use that same philosophy. but i think you eventually will break it, a good example of hypocrisy's is law
oh btw
| Mr Sparkle wrote: | | Sparkle thought the reasons were quite obvious. Human rights were specifically devised to create an ethical standard within our social structure. Animals don't do the things we do. They don't behave the way we do. They have completely different needs. Animals don't even have the mental capacity to actually grasp what a "right" is, nor are they aware of the concept of "I" or "me". Most don't even know how their actions affects their neighbour. We do and that's the fundamental difference. |
find me an earlier reference:P
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Mr Sparkle
Me no make sense
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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:43 am
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Reference of what? Evolution?
If that's what you meant, the quote you posted doesn't even focus on the discussion of evolution. Again you just proved Mr. Sparkle's point that you deduce things out of context.
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I am disrespectful to dirt!
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God speaks to me, too. BUT I take my medicine.
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